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The Difference Between R-22 and R-410A

Nov. 24, 2017 at 8:19 am
said:
Your information is so helpful. Wish I’d seen it before I let this company con me into “topping off” the R22 in my two a.c. units. The company was running a “prep your heating and a.c. systems before the winter” special. Sounded great and quite reasonable until he told me my 2 condensers each need “topping” off with 2lbs of R22 each unit. The cost was $100 a pound!! He did not mention anything about a leak, just that they needed topping off. Hey I’m not an air conditioning expert so I said okay. Oh he also said the top off would last another 5 years.
After reading many articles about R22, I realize I’ve been had. Freon never needs topping off unless there is a leak. This was an opportunity to cheat an unsuspecting customer, female or not.
I plan to contact the company and file a complaint. If they don’t give me a partial refund, I plan to complain to the state. California has several agencies that monitor the industry.
I’d like to get your opinion.
Elaine
Sep. 7, 2017 at 10:31 pm
said:
Yes the pressures are double of the r22 for the 410a, that,s why the industry has been swamped with units failing, compressors and coils. the 410a runs at almost double the pressure, most units are designed for 105 degrees so i was running calls for 3 days of new units not cooling, some were tripping out on high head pressure because a unit runs a head pressure of 425 to 450 when the ambient air temp is 107 so a unit in 120 ambient air temp is pushed to its design limits, hose down the coils with water and walls around it was the only option, for most of the country 410a works great in the southwest it is not as good.
the units are bigger the coils are bigger because the refrigerant is less efficient.
Is the r410 a better not by a long shot. google all of the manufacturers with problems and you will see the truth.
Sep. 16, 2017 at 4:10 pm
said:
Hi Brian, Good post. Also, one reason systems are bigger these days is that the government raised the minimum efficiency levels for residential units by 30% in 2006 (10 SEER to 13 SEER) right about the time the industry was moving to R410A with the final phase-out of R22 in 2010. In order to achieve the higher SEER levels the OEM’s had to add a lot of coil and go to more efficient components as well. R410A is different but there were other things going on as well during that change. Thanks for visiting our site.
Sep. 16, 2017 at 10:01 pm
said:
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THIS INFO! I know I should have checked this info 5 or 6 yrs ago when we had our new heating and air system installed by PSE&G , our south jersey co. I can’t complain about their service , when called they responded usually within 24 hours and we’ve never been charged for refills of the chemical , about at least 10 times!! we’ve been told that the unit s parts have been replaced – at one time or another ALL OF THE PARTS!!! We do pay monthly for repair service in addition to our bill. We have been lucky this year , the air has worked since june but now we’re having a september heat wave, high humidity for a week now and no air!!! The most convincing reason (and we’ve had so many different ones!) is that the new coolant puts tiny pinholes in the copper tubing and thats why it leaks out! Hence ,hot air!!! thanks again for this info , I wish my husband would have looked this up earlier when i asked him to and took an active interest in why all the trouble!! I want to hurt him physically every time he says things like”things aren’t made to last” I still think that things should be made to last!!! and a new system -heat and air that cost 10,000. paid over a years time should last longer than 5 yrs!!!!
Aug. 7, 2017 at 3:05 pm
said:
I have a rental house that has a heat pump/air handling unit. Four years ago I had to replace that AHU, because that electric coils were shot. (Unit was 17 years old.) Now after several hail storms here in the Midwest the past two years, the fins are bent so bad that my contractor says that straightening the fans out will not help the efficiency of the unit. I told him to go ahead and replace the condensing unit, which he gave me a quote to do.
When the unit arrived, to my property, the service tech realized that the unit ran R410A instead of R22A. {My Salesman discovered after I signed the contract, that condensers with R22a are no longer available.} After several discussions with my contractor, he decided to replace my evap coil at no charge to me. Going from a heat pump to a standard condenser unit, if you replace the evap coil, shouls work alright, shouldn’t it?
Thanks,
Aug. 7, 2017 at 9:38 pm
said:
First of all, R22a is propane. It’s ridiculously cold and efficient but not legal in the US except for window AC and retail fridges/freezers. It’s possible to install it in your AC, and there are YouTube videos to demonstrate from before it was illegal, but contractors will be very angry if they come to work on it and contaminate their gear, thinking it’s Freon. Besides, you don’t want to use it because you haven’t personally seen that there are NO LEAKS in your system. Propane is only safe if there are NO LEAKS, so I can’t recommend it in your case.
What you’re likely referring to is R22. You can still buy condensers for R22, just check the used AC lot in Florida. I’m not as familiar with heat pumps as I am with plain AC, but unless there’s a big difference I see nothing wrong with replacing both the indoor and outdoor sides at the same time.
If you’re able to save some money checking the used AC lot, my next advice would be to splurge for some real R22, not any of the replacements. Of course, this is after your contractor fixes any possible leaks. R22 is expensive.
Jul. 31, 2017 at 12:33 pm
said:
As long as they clean and flush the old lines and inspect all the braze joints for leaks before recharging it you might be ok with your old lines. Sometimes there are problems with leaks at the joints and bends with the old lines so it is a risk versus cost call. If you want to reduce the risk of leaks and problems down the road it might be worth running new lines for your new system. It is important that you and your contractor are on the same page with this because I doubt if the manufacturer’s warranty will cover problems with the line sets. I hope this helps.
Jul. 28, 2017 at 7:16 pm
said:
Mixing refrigerants does not work for long and may not work at all. Systems are designed for certain refrigerants and mixing them leads to low cooling performance and possible component failures. Suggest you keep shopping for a contractor who can check for leaks because sealed AC systems (they are all sealed BTW) do not need to be “topped off”. There also might be other problems going on and more charge could make it worse not better if it is not just a leak. This happens a lot unfortunately. Have someone run a full diagnostic so you know for sure.
said:
Hello Rick,
I have a older HVAC unit (2002), which uses R22 freon. There’s been a leak over the years. I’ve had freon added back around 20010, and had to have more freon added this year.
Here is my question. The HVAC company that added the freon was using a pinkish/light red container. I did not think it was an issue until I did some research which appears to show that R22 tanks are light green. Now, I’m wondering if I was given the wrong freon.
Do you have any idea how I could be getting R22 out of what appears to be a R410A container? If this is what happened, then what is my next course of action?
Is my AC system now ruined, or is it not too late to remove the incorrect freon (if this is what’s happened)?
Jul. 20, 2017 at 9:52 pm
said:
Hi Rick, I have a R22 multihead system installed in my apartment for 12 years. There are three indoor units and one compressor. One of the indoor units have been playing up started about two years ago such as stopped running suddenly and causing other units to stop at the same time as well as not cooling or heating very well. The other two units are still working but they are not cooling or heating as well as they were used to be. These issues were fixed by a technician about 7 months ago but unfortunately the unit is still not heating or cooling well and also the unit will stop after running continuously for a few hours. I would like to seek your opinions as to if it is still worthwhile to get it fixed by getting a second opinion from another technician or is it better to replace the old R22 system with a new R410a system. There are a few manufacturers such as Panasonic and Daikin advertised that their new R410a system can be used without having to change the old pipework designed for R22 system if the old pipework is to be flushed by using nitrogen by a trained technician. What is your opinion on this procedure? Should I repair or replace the whole system? What’s the best option for me? Thanks a lot!
Jul. 20, 2017 at 11:24 pm
said:
The life expectency of home or light industrial compressors is 8-12 years … you are at 12 and so … simply put … you need to flush the system … and cap it … vacuum out all the old refigerant and oils and contaminants … and replace the compressor and drier and filter assemblies / components … then … pull a hard vacuum on the system … flush it again, and hard vacuum it again … and refill it with refrigerant …
not complicated …
machines wear out …
major components need fluid replacement and component replacement …
bet you did fluid replacements and some component replacements on your car / vehicle in the last 12 years … and if not, it would probably quit working too …
stuff wears out, replace the worn compressor, control valve and selenoid, and the drier systems components, suck it dry and vacuum and put good clean refer fluid back
it will work again
Aug. 1, 2017 at 5:24 pm
said:
After getting my Rocksteady 18 year old spec home AC system replaced with the new fandangled r410 two and a half ton compressor and air handler. Now we have to run the Air 2 degrees cooler with our brand new system then we did with our 18 year old system just to try and get it to feel as cold as the older system made us feel. In the end I don’t care about your mathematics your equations or any of the other crap if I don’t feel cooler with my new system even while running at 2 degrees cooler I don’t care how many stories you tell me this Freon R 410 is garbage. I think somebody better start getting on the ball and coming up with an additive to add to it to get our flipping houses performing like the old R22 systems wood. Right now I care less about efficiency and your stinking High pressures I expect to feel colder and to be able to run my thermostat at a higher temperature then I did with my 18 year old system. Ozone depletion? Come on are you sitting on those melting polar ice caps with Al Gore? After constantly calling the AC installer back several times because we just we’re not cooling off even though the thermostat was telling us that it was cold in the house there is an obvious difference between the old and the new. And this time the EPA regulations after speaking with a friend of mine that is an AC contractor and I was telling him everything I have been through with my system he told me that the new r410 Freon is not really free on and that’s why the cooling efficiency is less. Yeah you can say I’m ticked off at the HVAC industry right now for allowing all of this to go through and drinking the Kool-Aid and trying to get us all to assimilate to a lower standard.
Aug. 1, 2017 at 8:25 pm
said:
Sorry to hear that you got rid of your R22 system. The more stories I read like yours, and there seems to be quite a few, the more I will hold onto our nearly antique Whirlpool green “wedge” that came with our house in 1979. Yes, the system is nearly 40 years old and still running as strong as the day we moved in. My kilowatt usage has not varied the least little bit and I’ve never had to call an A/C service company to fix it since bought the place nearly 20 years ago. I do all the work myself, cleaning out the units, oiling the motor bearings, replacing worn out relays and capacitors and checking the in vs. out air temp and it’s always a constant 20 difference even on the hottest days here in central Florida. When my system finally gives out I’ll just get it fixed and switch to the new AC-77 refrigerant. AC-77 is a direct replacement for R22, in fact, it operates at a lower pressure than R22 and is compatible with both mineral and alkylbenzene oils found in R22 systems. It’s also non – flammable & non- ozone depleting and its cost is reasonable…Found a new, 25 lb cylinder of it on ebay for $275 with free shipping. Of course, to buy it you must have the proper credentials.
Sep. 16, 2017 at 4:01 pm
said:
Hi Doyle, The size or capacity of the compressor has more to do with how much cooling is needed and how it is matched to the rest of the system components. SEER (Seasonal Energy Efficiency Ratio) is just about efficiency of the system. System manufacturers design systems to achieve a particular SEER rating and capacity and select the components (compressors, coils, valves, etc.) that will achieve that when the system is rated. The capacity of the system in BTU/Hr and the compressor capacity can usually be found on a tag that is attached to the outdoor unit. Sometimes the capacity is also shown in “tons” or ” horsepower”. If you can get the model number off the outdoor unit of your system you can usually look up the specs on the OEM’s site which would also show the size or at least the model of the compressor. From that you could go to the compressor manufacturer’s site to get the exact specs on the compressor if need those. Hope this helps.
Jul. 14, 2017 at 12:24 pm
said:
I have a 25year old (original) York split system a/c home unit. I move the ac unit a little to cut a bush that was obstructing it and going to the condenser fins and damaging/bending them a bit. By moving it, I bent the freon line and crack it causing it to leak all the R-22 refrigerant. I already sealed and sauder/welded the leak and need to add refrigerant. What refrigerant is recommended for a r-22 unit or compatible if I’m unable to find R-22 refrigerant for my home ac unit? Is there a refrigerant identical or equivalent to the R22 that I may use. Please advice .
Jul. 14, 2017 at 1:23 pm
said:
Normally I advise people to keep their R22 AC units, but if yours is from 1992 then you may actually get better EER by replacing it with a modern R410a system. If you really want to keep it, I would advise you to save up for some R22. If you can’t afford that, the next best thing for existing R22 units, in terms of vent temp and energy efficiency, is propane (R290). It is quite safe if done right but illegal in the US for central AC because DuPont can’t patent hydrocarbons. Whatever you fill it with, be sure to draw a perfect vacuum and make sure it holds. This will make sure you don’t have any leaks before you fill it and is especially important if you spend a lot on R22.
Jul. 21, 2017 at 6:18 am
said:
Thank you HCB. It was really great advice. I only hoped and wished I’ve seen your comments or reply sooner. Unfortunately, I had a licensed AC contractor come to my residence and check out my unit. I mentioned to him that my freon line had cracked and I was able to fix, sauder and weld it back together and sealed all leaks. All I really needed was to recharge my unit with new Refrigerant. He checked for leaks and suggested he add R407c since all freon leaked out and is the only compatible or equivalent refrigerant to my existing R-22. He did not flush the system out, or vaccumed it out completely and just added R407c to my unit. He said is all converted and good to go? He said he almost added the whole 25lbs of refrigerant he had to my unit. Approximately 1 hour of diagnosis and labor, the unit turned on and blown cool air but not as cold/chilled as it use to, I paid him $600 and he went on his way. One day later the cold/cool air stopped and my unit only blows regular air or what you call air fan and that’s it. What could have happened to my unit? I tried calling him back and is unavailable to reach and all calls are sent straight to voicemail. I left him plenty of voicemails messages and has yet to reply me back. I text him and try calling him plenty of times and nothing. I felt I was conned and ripped off. Did he do a complete conversion/ retro-fit as needed? Did he damaged my unit? Please advice. I need cool air now asap. What should I do??
Jul. 21, 2017 at 9:09 am
said:
Well, R407c is one of the few approved R22 replacements in the US. It’s obviously not going to perform as well as R22 or they would’ve been using it already.
Australians do Freon-to-propane retrofits all the time with night-and-day cooling results. Frank would prefer if I stopped advocating that option, and to be honest I readily agree in your case since your unit is leaky. Because of that, my advice is that you have two options: save up for pure or reclaimed R22, or upgrade to a modern R410a system. At this point, I would just upgrade. R410a is bad news, but probably not as bad as an R407c upgrade.
If you decide to keep fixing your setup, you at least know now that you probably didn’t patch all the leaks. You’ll want to draw a hard vacuum and make sure it holds for many hours. There is no room for error. If you draw the vacuum and turn off the pump, it should be at the same pressure reading hours later. You NEED this kind of crazy tolerance, otherwise you will lose refrigerant again and you will regret it if you saved a lot to buy R22.
Jul. 21, 2017 at 9:59 am
said:
When R407C is used to recharge an R22 system then the old oil needs to be changed and the lines need to be flushed to get rid of the old oil. R22 systems use mineral oil and R407C (and R410A) use synthetic POE oil. R407C is not compatible with mineral oil. You can ask another contractor if the R407C can be reclaimed and if you can have your system cleaned and flushed before putting the R407C back in. You might need to replace a few components too but a good contractor can tell for sure and have them check for leaks again too. They should also be able to tell if anything else is wrong before putting more money into it. On the other hand, you might be better off with a new system with a new warranty.
Jul. 19, 2017 at 8:18 pm
said:
Thanks to all who have posted suggestions to this thread but I have to jump in here just to clarify the site’s position on this topic – some of which were already mentioned. by others.
It is always important to use proper refrigerant replacements in re-charge situations. While there are may so called, R22 replacements on the market today, they come with some specific instructions and for newer systems, they also come with disclaimers from the system manufacturers so you need to check those out. For sure, R410A will not drop in very well, if at all, for a system designed for R22 and could cause poor performance or damage – the pressures are all wrong for the components. R-407C has been a popular, and approved R22 replacement now for a while, but you have to change the oil (from mineral oil to POE oil). This site also does not recommend using flammable refrigerants (e.g. propane and butane) as replacement refrigerants for any re-charging situation, but especially in relatively high charge systems like residential and commercial AC – the focus of this site. There are design guidelines in force today for the use of these refrigerants in the US so you might want to also review those. This site is intended to be a help site for homeowners and business owners who want to learn more about their AC systems. For more technical information about this topic from a contractors perspective there are other more suitable sites to get those details. In general, we recommend using a qualified contractor for major repairs or replacements.
Jul. 12, 2017 at 11:57 am
said:
I have a 6 year old Luxaire compressor unit running R-22. I had a small leak that finally got larger and lost the coolant. The leak is in the coil which is from 1993 when the house was built. The coil is inside the furnace which is in the attic of the house and serving the upstairs areas of the house. Did I get taken by my repair guy by installing an R-22 unit in 2011 when new units weren’t being built with R-22? Also, one repair guy who’s worked on the system before told me that the leaking coil can be replaced without changing out the entire inside and outside equipment. Another repair person said that I need to change the outside compressor unit, as well as the furnace and inclosed coil. Any ideas?
Jul. 12, 2017 at 12:31 pm
said:
If you know where the leak is, you can replace just that component. You’ll want them to recover the refrigerant beforehand so they can put it back in, because R22 is expensive.
Only car AC leaks refrigerant during normal use, so a central home system should not if it is recent. R22 AC units are reported to sometimes last 30 years, so I wouldn’t say that installing a recently-manufactured one in 2011 was a bad idea. If it were my house, I would just change the indoor furnace part for something at Home Depot or the used AC lot in Florida.
You were lucky to get your AC fixed before 2015, when they closed the R22 loophole. That means you effectively got a new R22 AC unit after they were largely banned in 2010 and it should last quite a few years, if you have no leaks.
Jul. 12, 2017 at 12:22 pm
said:
No, R134a is designed for cars and fridges. It is not advisable for use in home AC. There is no performance or environmental reason to switch home AC to R134a. If this were about a car or fridge, I would recommend HC-12a, legal in Canada and almost all US states. However, since this is about central AC, the only good R22 alternative is R290 (propane) which is not legal for central AC in the US; it is only allowed in window AC and retail fridges. That’s why I recommend you keep using R22 for as long as you can, because it achieves higher EER @ 100+ degF outdoor temps. If you must switch over to R410a, you will need a new outdoor unit at a minimum. But really, don’t switch over until you have to. You’re not doing the environment any favors by ripping out a working R22 unit and replacing with a modern R410a system.
Jul. 13, 2017 at 4:17 am
said:
hi brother Thanks for advice. i am facing low cooling intensity considering the temp reaches above 42C in summers and the system took time to trip i.e. outside temp 38C and if i set @ 31C it took 30~45 mins to tripped. further i personally compared with other 18000 BTU, i have Mitsubishi Split Air Conditioner MS-GF18VC 1.5 Ton YOM 2014. moreover the Outer unit properly placed at ventilated location. considering above scenario Technician recommended use R134a he also guides using 134a blower must be in max RPM (High), since this gas is for freezer that may cause chocked condenser fins due to which the system got stuck.
Jul. 13, 2017 at 9:36 am
said:
You may need a new thermostat if it takes forever to trip. My family had an analog one consisting of a mercury tilt switch on a bimetal strip for many years and we eventually bought a digital model. Unlike other HVAC components, they’re easy to install on your own.
Using R134a still sounds wrong for home AC, because of operating pressures/temperatures not being optimally matched to your pipe sizes, but I’m not as familiar with split AC so I can’t say whether your technician was right to recommend it. I can say that he’s right about using a high-RPM fan. You want to be pushing as much air as possible through the indoor side of your unit.
Jul. 11, 2017 at 2:28 am
said:
Unfortunately the most significant problem consumers and home owners will face with residential R410a split air conditioners is poorly designed, inefficient, and cheap condensing units. This was the case when R134a systems first entered the automotive market. Automotive 134a systems cooled well until there was a hot day and they quit due to the critical temperature of the refrigerant. Believe it or not, these same cooling problems even existed in the early days of cheaply engineered and made, packaged window air conditioners, using CFC refrigerants. Sometimes to get them cooling again, it was necessary to dump a bucket of water on them, or take the garden hose to them. Until manufacturers engineer R410a condensing units with large multi circuit parallel flow coils, they will continue to under perform, consume more electrical energy that translates into increased green house gases and global warming with an even greater potential then R22 ever represented. Eventually residential R410a split air conditioners may equal and exceed older R22 systems, but not until consumers are willing to pay their increased cost and manufactures are willing to engineer and build them robust enough for the toughest conditions. R134a actually cools better than R12 in a properly designed automotive air conditioner. And eventually R410a will see the day too that it performs better than R22 in residential air conditioners if not also phased out like R22 as R410a is still considered a “bridge” refrigerant until something greener is mandated by the EPA.
Jul. 7, 2017 at 10:24 am
said:
As a rule I don’t make comments on stuff but I have to say something about our A/C system that came with our house back in 1979 here in central Florida. It’s an old Whirlpool green “wedge” unit and it’s still working perfectly fine. I’ve never had to call anyone out here to service it in the near 18 years we’ve owned the place. Each spring I clean both the inside and outside units and inject light motor oil into the bearing ports of both fan motors (yes, it actually has oil ports for the motors with extension tubes for easy access). The only parts I’ve had to replace in these past 18 years is 3, small relays, 2, motor-run capacitors and a thermistor. I don’t know how much longer this system has to run but I’m keeping it until I “have” to replace it. Some years ago while trimming the trees I accidentally dropped a large limb on the compressor unit, it shattered the fan guard but that’s it. I’d like to see what would happen if the same tree limb came crashing down on one of those newer units. Anyway, I asked one of our A/C guys at the college I work at about replacing it and he said “Don’t” until you absolutely have to. That was some of the best advice I’ve ever been given.
Jun. 29, 2017 at 8:11 pm
said:
I live in Las Vegas and A/C units are pushed to the limit daily during the summer months. That being said I have a 410a unit and I am not happy with it. This is my 3rd year with this unit and every year I’ve had to have the refrigerant put into the unit. Not because of a leak (I guess) but because this 410a is particular as to the amount put into it. Too much/ too little causes A/C unit to either run and not shut off or the air isn’t cold enough coming out of the vent. Either way the continued expense of a 410a/ unit is disappointing to say the least.
Jun. 25, 2017 at 6:42 am
said:
Apparently, the thinking was that since folks are always going to be irresponsible and vent refrigerant .. especially from automotive systems … into the air … rather than paying bucks to have it vacuumed out of their system and replaced etc. … that the only rational action to take was to ban refrigerants that are an issue for the ozone etc.
Actually, sadly, this is probably an accurate assessment … immediate convenience usually trumps long term value to the common cause … just the way humans tend to work …
However … given that the real necessity for cooling is usually in the hottest areas … 95-120F or so … F-22 was vastly better at providing cooling in that range … whereas 410 struggles massively and eats huge amounts of electricity to do the cooling at anything above 102 F
So with a 410 unit … the output air is not as cold … and i have to run it vastly increased percentages of the time … and since the air is not as cold … the enthalpy difference has to be made up by running additional fans to distribute the less cool air … making the 410 unit of the same capacity as my F-22 unit about 30-35% more expensive to operate … in reality …
So what is a fella to do ?
Me … I am abandoning both … and the -ant struggle and just moving to ammonia … problem solved …
Ammonia handles a larger temperature range, offers greater cooling capacity, and is easily available without fancy permits or certifications or other horse- non-sense.
Add to that that ammonia gear is usually industrial and robust and has life expectancies that make the crappy home refer / air con gear look like comparing a Yugo auto to an industrial diesel semi … 30,000 miles to death vs 3,000,000 miles to overhaul …
so me … i think we should ban r410a as well and just move everyone to ammonia
there, i said it
Jun. 25, 2017 at 9:43 am
said:
That would be nice, but it isn’t possible. I already looked into making home AC run on ammonia. You’d need to make a copper-free system, preferably aluminum. Also, you can’t use ammonia directly in AC anyway because if it springs a leak, you’re dead. People who use it for AC are actually using it to cool water which is pumped around to cool a large building. This is not cost-effective (and probably not energy-efficient) for a house, even a large one.
I understand that R22 is the best but I believe hydrocarbons are the future, not ammonia. Just like ammonia, they’re reputed to surpass the original CFC freons cold- and energy-wise. From what I’ve read, there’s a refrigerant called HC-12a which is widely used in Canada and is legal in most US states for replacing R134a. It’s supposed to be something like 70% propane/30% isobutane. You can find it on Amazon or direct from FrostyCool, Duracool, etc. It happens to be drop-in compatible with R-12 (though the legal weirdness requires you to retrofit to R-134a first), R-134a, and all their respective systems, no oil preference.
Of course, this is only good for cars and fridges. Home AC still needs a solution. You may want to Google “Davuluri Treatment”. But be warned: experiments involving hydrocarbons, and AC in general, are done at your own risk. Be safe when modding AC units! Read A LOT before trying anything. Not for the environment, but for your personal safety.
Jun. 17, 2017 at 1:58 pm
said:
Is anyone here familiar with the acronym ‘BOHICA’? We experience it everyday. R12 vs R134A, R22 vs R410A…..it’s the same old story given to ‘we the people’ ……’this is so much better then what we had before, you’ll be amazed at the difference.’
My HAVC unit was installed a month after returning from Chapter10 -look it up, so the A/C portion wasn’t used until the following year. Therefore, it been used for thirteen (13) seasons, approximately one thousand, one-hundred and seventy day (1170). It’s been used with a programmable thermostat. It was not operating twenty-four hour a day either.
The unit installed was a WELL KNOWN unit, just ask ‘Dave L.’.
Anyways, one would believe that after these ‘conversions’ are planned, there would be a way to convert units; like the way cars’ A/C have conversions to accommodate from older R12 to R134……but no, and way (?)….. it all has to do with EPA and Politicans and recouping R&D force upon an industry. Based on my personal usage, my current set-up has cost me -excluding electric usage- $176.92 per year for piece of equipment that gets used ninety days per year. The replacement of this unit would double that; and with talk of yet another type of coolant change we can only imagine what the cost will be.
Jun. 14, 2017 at 5:09 pm
said:
Can anyone shed some insight onto my problem. We have a Kenmore 22000 btu air conditioner bought in 2003. For the past few years it constant!y freezes resulting in us having to turn on fan only and letting it defrost. I thought the problem might have been the air bouncing off a mattress and box spring that was sitting in my dining room where the A/C is (long story don’t ask). But yesterday when I was finally able to move the mattresses it was doing the same thing…a little worse actually. It was in the lower 90’s yesterday and about 88 inside but there the A/C was frozen. Does it sound like the A/C is on its way out? Any help would be very appreciated as 800.00 for a new one is going to be a stretch.
Jul. 11, 2017 at 3:05 am
said:
Two things can cause a normal operating packaged air conditioner coil to freeze and it is more common than most folks realize. The first is operating the unit with the thermostat adjusted at a too cold temperature setting. This usually occurs when trying to cool a large area with a unit that is undersized. An air conditioner that is properly sized for the space it is cooling, will cycle the compressor off periodically. If the fan continues to run, any ice formation will melt quickly when the compressor cycles off. The second issue is never cleaning the air filter or again operating the unit on the lowest fan setting and coldest temperature setting. Low air flow through the cooling coil doesn’t have the necessary heat the unit was designed to absorb, so the cooling coil gets too cold and ice starts to form. And if the compressor never shuts off, the coil eventually ices over. Low refrigerant charge does not cause icing, it reduces the unit’s ability to remove heat since there is less refrigerant to absorb heat. Also, R22 has not been outlawed. Production of R22 in the United States will end in 2020 and may continue to me made in other nations indefinitely, although it would be illegal to import into the US (like illegal drugs).
Jun. 2, 2017 at 6:23 pm
said:
The discussion of “climate change” and “ozone holes” is really moot, in relation to the changing of refrigerants. Back in the late ’80s, I supervised a major overhaul of a low temp, cascade system. Getting ready to do a re-start, I contacted DuPont Chemical an ordered 5000# of R-12. I was informed that it would be a month before the order could be shipped. Further discussion of the time element, I was told that presently about 100,000#
was shipped regularly to the “cosmetic” industry; i.e.: hair spray, deodorants, etc. The chemical and equipment manufacturers along with the EPA became a driving force to eliminate the “standard” refrigerants. This change has resulted in more “new” equipment sales and less “repair”. This covers all the house-hold refrigerators, auto air conditioners, building air conditioners, etc etc. Okay, we are going to “modernize” America and maybe the world. BIG bucks were made by everyone in the supply chain. The ironic part of this, was that R-12 could be bought in Mexico for the ‘old’ price; and, shipped into the USA as a fire retardant. Now let’s look at this problem of “adding” or adjusting the refrigerant charge in the modern equipment. The new refrigerants are “azeotropic” mixtures. Making it simple means that there are at least two different chemicals. So when there is a leak, it is impossible to determine how much of which chemical is gone; i.e.: we mix apple juice and orange juice to make a drink; we spill some and want to refill the pitcher. How much apple juice was lost or was it mostly orange juice. The only way to add to the modern systems, is to totally reclaim the refrigerant and re-charge the system with the correct amount. BOTTOM LINE IS MONEY—LOTS OF MONEY for everyone, except for the equipment owner…..
Jun. 14, 2017 at 9:48 am
said:
It’s the cost of progress! But I’m sure some would rather be bled when they’re sick, because it costs them less money? Seriously?
Some would walk on red hot coals, even sacrifice their lives for their children’s, children’s, children, etc. While some only care about themselves in the now! Mostly childless?
Philosophy? Psychology?
I believe in any science that aims to perpetuate mankind’s existence on planet earth, despite those that just don’t get it!
From what I understand, considering all pertinent things one ‘should’ consider, a geothermal heat pump is the best solution ‘today’ in both keeping cool and warm, especially when combined with solar heating/photo-voltaic cells. Of course incorporating a trombe wall as well as other passive technologies is even better.
So obviously my vote goes to the refrigerant that considers all things of the day, opposed to archaic technologies, which mind you, served their purpose well, along the chain of human knowledge.
Jun. 3, 2017 at 1:15 pm
said:
Thanks for your post, Kylar. Just to add to the confusion – the R22 phase-out in the US happened in 2010. At this time, there were also significant changes in US efficiency regulation going on for residential AC systems that happened in 2006 and again in 2013. So, you are correct in saying there were significant changes in equipment designs during this period to achieve the new minimum efficiencies and in parallel, the new designs were also dealing with the R22 phase-out. To further confuse things, the standards for capacity and efficiency ratings (how much cooling you get at particular conditions – e.g. hottest days versus milder days) were also changing. All these changes have added to the confusion. The engineers tell us that R410A is more efficient but I think some of that is due to the higher operating pressures involved. So, I think it is sort of apples and oranges to compare them as you suggest and the simultaneous changes of equipment design and testing standards also makes it difficult to make blanket statements about this period. In any case, the days of new equipment with R22 are gone.
It is interesting to note that the deal to ban R22 was part of the 1987 Montreal Protocol treaty to fix the hole in the ozone layer – which now seems to be shrinking, perhaps as a direct result of the chemical bans. However, the move to R410A apparently did nothing to affect the latest environmental concerns about global warming. So the next big changes affecting HVAC refrigerants will probably be related to regulations attempt to address global “climate change”. We will try to cover these changes as they evolve over the next few years so check out the site when you begin to hear about this in the news and we will try to provide a forum for more debate. Thanks for visiting the site and posting comments.
May. 21, 2017 at 5:09 pm
said:
Hi Dave – here are a few things to consider. First of all, if they added charge then you might have a leak. If they did not fix the leak then you could have a recurring low charge situation causing low or no cooling. It is also not good to use the wrong refrigerant because that could also lead to poor performance. The refrigerant properties are matched to all the system components so it needs to be right and charged to the right level. You should probably have a qualified HVAC contractor evaluate your system and diagnose/fix any problems. If you know how much R410A was added earlier that might be helpful. They might be able to fix it. Good luck!
Jul. 11, 2017 at 3:37 am
said:
Since the EPA does not require unique service fittings for R410a to be used, despite there being R410a fittings made, it is possible to charge R410a into anything. Anyone charging an R22 system must be EPA section 608 certified. Such certification helps insure technicians identify refrigerants and avoid mixing them. Contaminated refrigerants can be very expensive to dispose of and are considered hazardous waste. If consumers were more knowledgeable about the services, they were paying for, reporting illegal activity can net a reward of $10,000 or enough to pay for your new system, to include thousands in fines for the technician or business performing illegal work. If there is a person servicing your refrigeration equipment refrigerants, ask to see their EPA certification. If th